Crossing the Chaotic Waters

Tim and Jon discuss literary design patterns in the Bible.

Episode 15
Apr 16, 2018
Play Episode
Show Notes

This is another episode in our How to Read the Bible Series. Today Tim and Jon discuss literary design patterns in the Bible.

In part 1 (0-12:27), the guys discuss the ways Bible stories often pattern after each other. Tim explains that he is working on a project with other Bible scholars studying how many biblical stories build on each other.

Tim says many Bible stories are set up in parallel, to replay key themes the writers are trying to make. Jon provides a real life example of Toy Story 3. The Toy Story 3 writers watched dozens of prison break movies in order to write the “daycare/prison break out” scene in Toy Story 3. Tim says that’s a good example of a layering technique being used in modern day. The classic prison break is layered into a children’s movie.

In part 2 (12:27-19:15), Tim says the biblical authors were very intentional about building an entire universe of meaning in the biblical stories themselves. There are thousands of hidden “hyperlinks” of key repeated words, phrases and repeated characters that link all Bible stories together. There is no such thing as an isolated story in the Bible. An example of Bible stories linking together is David and Bathsheba and the eating of the apple in Genesis. In Hebrew, it says “(Bathsheba) was good of sight, very.” Tim says this links back to Adam and Eve seeing the “fruit was good of sight” which links back to God saying things were “good, very good.” So the reader is supposed to ponder upon who decides what “good” is in these stories. David? God? Adam and Eve?

In part 3 (19:15-26:46), the guys dive into the creation story at the beginning of the Bible. Tim says Genesis 1 is set up in a very unique way. Tim says the fundamental image of chaos is dark, untamed waters. Jon offers an interesting comment about a new shark species that was recently discovered in the dark ocean. Tim outlines the first three days as the separation of realms. (Day 1) separating light from dark, (day 2) separating water from water, (day 3) separating water from dry land. Then the next three days, 4,5,6 are the creation of inhabitants of the realms in the first three days.

In part 4 (26:46-35:18), Tim says, the creation account is presented in such a way that God separates the chaotic waters to create a stable habitation where humans can live. Thinking about the Biblical authors desire to layer stories on each other, Where else does this theme of God separating waters appear in the Bible?

All over the Bible.

The story of Noah is depicted as the “de-creation” of the world. The world sinks back into “chaotic waters.” God remembers Noah and causes a “ruach to to pass over the land” just like the original creation story, he is separating the waters from the land and re-creating a habitation for humans.

In part 5 (35:18-end), Tim asks Jon “what was God doing with all this separating?” Jon and Tim discuss how the cause of creation descending back into chaos is human evil. Humans choose violence, bringing the world back to a place where God turns it over to chaos.

The next story where God tames the waters to rescue his people is the Exodus story. God “remembers Israel” when they cry out about their oppression in Egypt just as he “remembers Noah”. Tim says when Israel crosses the Red (Reed) Sea, it merges days 2 and 3 in creation. Moses splits/separates the waters to reveal dry land. Israel also passes through the waters, saved by God, just as Noah passed through the waters, saved by God.

Jon asks what’s the purpose of telling stories like this is. Jon is confused, is salvation really this complicated? What does all this mean for the modern person? Tim tells Jon to be patient, and that the ultimate end of the flood and water imagery in the Bible is the Christian tradition of baptism.

Thank you to all our supporters!

Show Resources:

Our video on “Design Patterns in The Bible”: https://thebibleproject.com/videos/design-patterns-biblical-narrative/

The new species of shark discovered: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/11/prehistoric-frilled-shark-bycatch-deep-sea-spd/

"Metaphors We Live By" by George Lakoff

"More Than Cool Reason" by George Lakoff

"The Lost World of Genesis One" by John Walton

Show Music:

Defender Instrumental by Rosasharn; Cocoa by Tae The Producer; Fujiyama by Tae The Producer; Mom by Tae The Producer; Don’t Hold Back by Great Scott

Show Produced By:

Dan Gummel. Jon Collins. Tim Mackie. Matthew Halbert-Howen.

Scripture References
Genesis 1
Genesis 5
Genesis 7:11
Exodus 4
Exodus 14:16
Exodus 14
2 Samuel 11
Exodus 2
Exodus 4:23
Exodus 14:13-14
Exodus 14:19-24

Podcast Date: April 16, 2018


Speakers in the audio file:

Jon Collins

Tim Mackie


Tim: Hey everybody. Welcome to The Bible Project podcast. My name is Tim, one of the

co-founders of The Bible Project, and you were the wonderful person that you are.

Welcome to the podcast. Normally, my partner and co-founder of The Bible Project,

Jon Collins does these introductions. This is actually my first one ever. So I'm a little

bit nervous, but there you go. I'm just gonna pretend like I'm talking to you even

though I can't see anybody.

Anyway, this is Episode 3 of a four-part series that Jon and I did. It was a whole set of

conversations we had in our "How to Read the Bible" series, both conversations and

videos that are coming out on our YouTube channel. Here, these four conversations

are about feature of biblical narrative that we're calling Design Patterns.

The first two episodes were actually done live before a live audience where we did

Q&A. I really recommend listening to the first two episodes of this series on Design

Patterns. This episode and the following won't make a lot of sense without those

previous episodes.

But basically, we're talking about the way that biblical authors have designed and

coordinated different stories across the whole of the Bible, and how they've

embedded repeated key themes and words in all these different stories so that as

you read through the Bible over and over and over again, you start to connect the

thread and are able to follow the developing theological claims and arguments and

ideas that are being worked out in all these coordinated patterns stories.

In this episode, we're going to finish up the example we were developing in the

previous ones about the temptation pattern of human failure. In this one, we're

going to start a two-part conversation about pattern of God's salvation, specifically

about God providing salvation at sunrise by rescuing his people through the

dangerous waters. And it all leads up to the practice of early Christian baptism. And

if that sounds weird to you, trust me, it's so incredible.

So there you go. This is going to be fun conversation. I learned a ton, I hope it's

helpful for you. Let's dive in and learn together.


Tim: So we're having a conversation about how to read biblical narrative. This is the last


Jon: Plot character setting, and now—

Tim: Plot character and setting, and then—

Jon: Those are basic ones.

Tim: Pretty basic elements to any narrative whatsoever. Then this last one is actually a

combining all of those together and learning to pay attention to design patterns in

biblical narrative. It's actually a technique that all narratives draw upon in some way,

but it's something that the bigger authors have refined into a supreme form of

artistic expression and communication.

It's just part of how the biblical narratives make sense and make their arguments and

communicate this through these design patterns that are asking you the reader to

compare narratives, and characters, and settings, and plots, both the ones that are

right next to each other, like we looked at Cain and Abel, and Adam and Eve, but

then also to begin linking together so that you compare narratives that are distant

from each other, but united by these design patterns.

Jon: We looked at a bunch of examples when we were down in Milpitas, with that crew,

and I was really surprised at how many stories pattern after each other. It's almost

ridiculous how much they do it. Almost, to the extent of like, "Wait, is this all the

Bible is doing?" I guess just rehashing these ideas again, and again, through

different characters and different times.

Tim: This whole discussion represents a project that I'm working on with a number of

other friends and scholars. These design patterns, it's something people have

noticed for a very long time. Especially when you read Jewish literature about the

Bible from the period of the Second Temple, early Christianity, when you look at how

the New Testament authors, the apostles use the Old Testament, they're paying

attention to all this stuff. They're super keyed in.

So this isn't a new way of reading the Bible. It's actually one of the most ancient

ways, and it seems to have been woven into the fabric of the composition of these

narratives in the first place. So you're right, it's not—

Jon: It almost seems like it was the main thing on the author's mind.

Tim: It's like one of the main vehicles of how these authors use the narratives to make

claims, to make an argument.

Jon: There was different levels of how much you're using this technique as an author.

One level was, "I wrote this really an interesting story. Oh, I have an idea. I could take

this one scene on my story and connected back to this other scene in the story. Oh,

that'd be neat."

Tim: Sure.

Jon: So there's one level of like, it's an afterthought. But on the other side of the

spectrum would be every time you come to the new story, you go, "Okay, what's this

patterning? This needs to pattern something, and I'm actually going to pattern a

number of things." It's the first thing on your mind.

If that's the spectrum, and anywhere in between, it really feels like biblical authors

are on the far end of the spectrum of it's like the first thing on their mind, how is this

connected to other stories?

Tim: Correct. Plot setting characterization are all different ways that they can create

design patterns between stories. But the patterning and design so that you begin to

compare parallel elements and different stories, that's like the bread and butter, you

could say, of how they communicate. Even I think we looked at a long example of

the temptation narrative.

Jon: Temptation narratives, yeah.

Tim: So the first humans to distrust God and make a stupid decision, whereby they

embraced their own destruction.

Jon: Yeah, Adam and Eve.

Tim: So it makes perfect sense that that's the narrative that would become like a

template. They get to replay it, because that narrative is trying to make a claim about

the human condition. Of course, all these key junctures were significant characters in

the biblical narrative are faced with moments of decision, and it's like, "Oh." That's

what you would expect, that it would be a replaying of the humans on Pages 1, 2

and 3 in the Bible.

Jon: Well, and so in cinema, this happens a lot, where you have a template for how a

story's told. Like a "Buddy Cop" movie, right? There are tons of those, and they all

kind of have the same beats, and they all share the same beats. And you can actually

dissect them and put like...What's Eddie Murphy one? Hollywood Cop or something?

Anyways, you put them next to each other, and they kind of mimic each other. In

fact, one reason why Pixar has been so good at their early storytelling is they would

like take Toy Story 3, for example. Do you know Toy Story 3?

Tim: I didn't see it.

Jon: You never saw Toy Story 3?

Tim: No. I just saw 1.

Jon: Oh, really?

Tim: Yeah.

Jon: Oh, wow.

Tim: I just showed it to my kids for the first time.

Jon: Oh, yeah?

Tim: Yeah.

Jon: Did they like it?

Tim: Oh, they were so into it. I can't wait to show them 2.

Jon: Watch 2 and then watch 3. Three, there's a scene where all the toys are...I'm going to

spoil Toy Story 3 story for you a little bit.

Tim: It's okay. It's totally fine.

Jon: All the toys get sent to this daycare, and it's like prison for them and so they're just

like, it's a nightmare. And so they need to get out of this daycare. So there's this

whole jailbreak scene, and the authors, the writers of Toy Story, it's a bunch of

people working out together, in order to write that scene, they watched dozens of

prison movies and paid attention to all the just the tropes of like in the prison

movies there's always the old man who's in prison. He's kind of a wise old man. He's

a salty guy, but he gives you good advice.

There are just all these beats for how a prison escape works in Hollywood. So what

they did is they just took the best of that, and then they retold all of those in their

Toy Story prison break. And that's what makes it so good.

Tim: That's exactly right. That's a great example of both similarities but also different than

what the biblical authors are doing. The similarity would be, when you're reading

through key narratives about a character in the Bible of being faced with a choice in

this, you'll start to notice, odds are that you're going to see the garden temptation,

and then all of its iterations. Each time another iteration happens like with Abraham

and Sarah, then the third repetition will pick up key phrases and ideas not just from

the first one, but from both the first and the second.

Jon: They'd be layered on each other.

Tim: Remembers this was why in Saul's story when Saul's hiding among the baggage,

that's parallel not to the garden but to Achan hiding the coveted Babylonian cloak

and gold—

Jon: Which is connected to hiding in the garden.

Tim: Yeah. So in Achan story, the “gold” it's it “fruit,” whereas, in the Saul story, Saul

becomes the “fruit.” But he also maps on to the idolatrous plunder of Achan. It's a

narrative argument to say that Saul has become the idol. "The people have installed

a new idol in the place of God," it's a human King.

So that shows a similarity that there are these repeated patterns. But the question is,

where did these patterns come from? In the example you just gave, it's the writers

looking to all these other literatures outside the narrative world—

Jon: Outside of the Toy Story narrative world.

Tim: Outside of the Toy Story narrative like, look at every other jailbreak. And that was

actually the way Robert Alter, the scholar whose work I was drawing on, that's the

way he frames it is there were just these Israelite ways of telling about how people

meet and get married. It usually happens at a well and there's hero coming and the

woman is there. But his point is, there's some pattern that exists just out there in

Israelite culture and then all these different stories are mapping onto it.

What I'm saying is different in that when you see these patterns, what you're

watching an author do is not try mold the story to some just common way Israelites

told for narrative. It's you're watching a narrative being formed in light of that

author's own pondering and reflection on the Genesis narrative itself. It's internal. Its

internal to the narrative world of the Bible.

Jon: It's all within that same [inaudible 00:11:30].

Tim: That's right. So the analogy with Toy Story would be if they modeled the jailbreak

seen off of a jailbreak in Toy Story 1.

Jon: Right. It's going to be hard for them to really have much material until like Toy Story


Tim: Yeah, that's right. Then the reverse would go, it would be that they actually had

mapped out Toy Story 1 to 18, and you can go back and see they actually designed

Toy Story 1 to have within it all the very Easter egg clue for the rest of the unfolding

story. But you're not going to recognize any of those until you've seen all the way

through to 18.

Then you go back to one and you're like, "Whoa, that's why it talked about them

being naked and not ashamed. That was interesting, but what does it have to do

with anything?" And then you see that those little Easter eggs have relevance for

later iterations of the pattern.


Jon: Yeah, that makes sense. So it's not like they just looked out into culture and said like,

"Well, how does culture at large talk about temptation narratives?" I mean,

obviously, they would be influenced by the culture at large.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. The question is the primary influence, where's the first place I go

to look?

Jon: But primarily, they'll go, "Okay, well, in our Scriptures, how have we talked about this

before? Let's start there.

Tim: Let's start there. Because, again, the first instances of these patterns begin with the

stories about human and life on pages 1, 2, 3. So the narratives, even the names of

the characters are trying to tell you that they're giving you like a template or a

playbook of sorts that every story after this is going be riffing off of this template in

some way.

Jon: Cool. So if I remember correctly, what we did last time was we started with looking

at how words will clue you in the patterning?

Tim: That's right. Key repeated words and vocabulary.

Jon: And then we also then—

Tim: Clue you into the linking together stories across a long spectrum. Like the whole

Saul story is linked together by that word "to see" - to look at or to see. And it's the

big stretch. It's like eight or nine chapters that that keyword just keeps developing.

So that can happen in stories next to each other where keywords clue you into

connections and comparisons being made.

Jon: "Seeing."

Tim: Yeah. Then we went broader, and then we saw how the same technique key

repeated words can connect stories together that are really distant from each other.

Jon: I see.

Tim: That was the idea.

Jon: And it's not just words. It also phrases...

Tim: Phrases, that's right.

Jon: ...and situations.

Tim: Parallel plot situations, parallel settings, parallel...all that.

Jon: Cool. We were going through a bunch just to fly by as we did. The Adam and Eve

story, we saw how it was to Cain and Abel story, how that was connected to—

Tim: Abraham and Sarah.

Jon: Abraham and Sarah, yeah. I never thought about that. That's really crazy.

Tim: Connected to Aaron and Israelites and the golden calf.

Jon: And then the whole story in Joshua about...what's that guy's name?

Tim: Achan.

Jon: Achan. He's hiding that plunder.

Tim: The golden plunder.

Jon: The golden plunder. Then that is all these ideas then link to Saul being raised up is

king and he becomes the idol or the temptation of Israel.

Tim: Yeah. the Israelites become the "adam," the human Adam and Eve figures redefining

good and evil according to their desires.

Jon: I think you said offhand when we were there that this could be a theme video - the

temptation motif at some point.

Tim: Well, I'm wondering if this should be the primary example in this theme.

Jon: In this video. So maybe this is kind of a theme video and temptation but showing

how patterning works.

Tim: Yeah, that's right.

Jon: That'll be interesting.

Tim: Then what we didn't do with the group is the last example. It's just a short one. After

you've got the pattern, the way that David and Bathsheba's story is introduced is

David's on his roof, he sees a woman, the man sees the woman, and she was good

of sight. Very.

Jon: Is that an awkward way to say in Hebrew?

Tim: No. Often you'll put it like that, but "very good" to see that something is good and

then to see that it's very good.

Jon: Adam and Eve saw that the fruit was good.

Tim: That's right. Which itself is riffing off of—

Jon: That God made things good.

Tim: That's right.

Jon: So it's this whole battle of who decides what's good?

Tim: Yeah. Then once David sees that she is good, he takes her. It's just kind of this crown

jewel, all you need is a few little breadcrumbs and you get it.

Jon: And the story now is connected to everything before it.

Tim: That's right.

Jon: And it's really rich way because of a couple of words.

Tim: So let's pause. This example is mainly about humans, human characters, and their

behavior. So this isn't just a way of being artsy and fancy. Each of those stories is

developing the Hebrew Bibles claim about the human condition. So we redefine

good and evil.

Jon: We see that things are good so you want to take them.

Tim: Yeah. Look all these different portraits of the human failure. It can take place in

power, sexual abuse situations - Abraham and Sarah and Hagar. It can take place in

one-person selfishness overflowing to ruin for the many like Achan.

Jon: And his greed.

Tim: Yeah. It can come when people idolize political institutions or people and turn them

into god figures. And will compromise and redefine good and evil if we could just

get that person as our leader. So profound.

Jon: Really profound.

Tim: So it's a really sophisticated way of these narratives making their theological claims

about humans and how we operate. How stupid we are.

So the second example, I want to look at, which when we're done with it, we might

choose to make this the prime example in the video. I can't decide. This one's about

a pattern in God's behavior, and a way that God typically acts to bring salvation. It's

usually at sunrise and there's usually water involved.

Jon: God's romantic.

Tim: Totally. So again, it's the same technique, repeated words, parallel scenes, all this.

And pages 1 through 3 is where it all begins as it usually does.

Jon: It's such a packed, dense piece of literature right there.

Tim: Okay. So should we go for it?

Jon: Let's do it?

Tim: Dive in. All right.


Jon: Here we go.

Tim: Literally, the first sentences of the Bible, God creates sky and the land, and God's

Spirit is hovering over the dark, abysmal waters, the wild and waste. That's the

foundation image. The foundation image of uncreation or the natural state of things

that needs to be ordered is dark water.

Jon: Which is very intuitive to land creatures. It's gnarly out there.

Tim: Yeah, I don't belong out there.

Jon: I don't belong.

Tim: I belong here.

Jon: That' chaotic out there. And man, they just found this...I feel like we're talking about

this kind of thing a lot. But they just found this creature that's like a shark that we

didn't know existed and it's prehistoric. And it's like this snaky crazy shark. He's got


Tim: Where did you see this? On Wired or something?

Jon: I hope this is legit thing. Where did I see it? It's got all these needle teeth and it just

looks creepy. It just lives in the deep, deep ocean. Discovery of a new shark.

Tim: Oh, yeah, did. July 31 on National Geographic: Etmopterus lailae. It belongs to the

lanternshark family. It was found nearly 1,000 feet below the Pacific Ocean off the

coast of Hawaii's northwestern islands.

Jon: Like some guys were just trolling—

Tim: It looks like a crazy dinosaur snake.

Jon: Yeah. Ancient shark with a snakehead. Now, can you imagine if you ran into one of

these things and then you just had to tell stories of what you experienced? It is

gnarly. We do not belong in the ocean.

Tim: That's not our place. Look at that thing.

Jon: It's been hanging out on our planet with us.

Tim: Wow.

Jon: The chaos dragon. The sea dragon.

Tim: Yeah, totally.

Jon: It's got like 20 different rows of these crazy teeth.

Tim: Yeah, dude, tohu wa-bohu - wild and waste.

Jon: Yeah, man. So yeah, we got the dark abysmal water.

Tim: The fundamental image is what must be overcome and done away with is that. The

dark chaotic waters that belch up terrifying creatures.

Jon: They are thousands of feet below.

Tim: So how does God's Spirit hovering over the waters do that? Well, remember the

whole thing of breath and word?

Jon: Yeah.

Tim: God's breath authors the word; the first word is "Let there be light." So "light"

becomes a fundamental image of light opposed to darkness. Light representing

God's creative life and energy just flooding the darkness. And God separates the

light from darkness, day 1.

Jon: In Hebrew thought they must know that light comes from the sun.

Tim: Correct. Yes, that's right.

Jon: So what are they talking about here? Because in the narrative logic, the sun hasn't

been created yet.

Tim: Two things going on here. One has to do with the literary design of Genesis 1. This is

a little off topic, but that's okay. So it's set in two parallel panels. The six-day has

been set in two parallel panels of separating light and dark.

Jon: Day 1 is connected to day 4?

Tim: Day 1 is separating light and dark, day 2 is separating waters from the waters, day 3

is separating waters and dry land. Then what day 4, 5, and 6 does is go back through

that triad and name and provide inhabitants for the realm.

So the separating becomes an act of ordering - bringing order to the chaos. Then in

that ordered space, inhabitants are connected.

Jon: So the inhabitants would be the sun and the moon and the star?

Tim: Yes. In the ordering of time, light and dark, the creatures that inhabit that space, give

that order through physical realities: the sun, moon, stars.

Jon: Got it.

Tim: The creature's inhabiting the water above and below the fish and sea, that's day 2.

And then days 3 and 6 is the land inhabitants.

Jon: Got it.

Tim: What this patterning tells you is that even the sequence of those six days—

Jon: It's more literary than anything else.

Tim: Yeah. Or it's about the theological claim being made that God is the one,

especially...I actually just read this and I actually think it's right. Tohu wa-bohu, the

Hebrew words that introduced this account, wild and waste, connected to unformed

and uninhabited. What's God doing on days 1 to 3 is forming order and what He's

doing on day 4, 5, and 6 is creating inhabitants. So precisely the problem of the dark

chaotic waters.

Jon: Wait. So Tohu wa-bohu, is that the literal meaning of that word or unformed and


Tim: A wild wasteland. "Wild" meaning "unformed," "unordered," and "waste" meaning

"uninhabited." Then that precisely corresponds. So the point is that the ordering of

the six days seems more determined by a literary-theological agenda than like we're

watching security camera footage of the first sentence.

Jon: Then you know what? Why don't we make that video?

Tim: Just that point right there?

Jon: Just that point.

Tim: It could be an awesome video.

Jon: Yeah.

Tim: What this allows you to do then is, once you separated these days from God

bringing into physical material existence, things that did not material, that's not the

framework here. It's about ordering and filling the habitats. Then all of a sudden, it

makes perfect sense that the ordering of time can be separate from the inhabitants

of the sun, moon, and stars. Because God's not creating photons here. He's

establishing an order of light and dark.

And when He names what the light and dark, He doesn't name them photons. He

names it day and night, which are categories of time that are meaningful to humans.

Jon: Right.

Tim: It's an ordering of the time.

Jon: It's kind of Walton's point, right? Is it same Jon Walton?

Tim: Oh, Walton.

Jon: Walton?

Tim: Yes, that's right. That's correct.

Jon: And what did he call it?

Tim: Functional.

Jon: Functional versus...It's kind of having these examples of when you're creating a

business, you're putting together the paperwork and stuff. You're not actually

creating anything. You're just forming the structure in which it makes sense. But

you're not—

Tim: Bringing order and creating structures so that something new can operate.


Tim: So my point in bringing up days 1, 2, and 3 - it's actually related - is that each of the

first three days involves an act of separating and ordering. So separating of light and

dark, day 2 is separating waters above and waters below by the dome - or some

translations have firmament or expense. But it's a solid thing.

Jon: The rakia.

Tim: The rakia, the blue thing up there that separates the waters above from the waters

below. So again, it's separating but now waters from waters. And then day 3 is now

the waters under.

Jon: Is the same waters it says that was chaotic waters? Am I supposed to be imagining

like this big just chaotic water getting separated?

Tim: Well, yeah, it's as if some waters that we're all one turned into two to waters above

and waters below. Now let's focus camera pan down, focus on the waters below.

Those waters gather together and dry land emerges. So now it's a separating of

water from dry land.

So that's the fundamental act of this "Let there be light." If at sunrise God begins

separating three acts 1, 2, 3 and dry land emerges. That's where the humans can go.

So out of the chaotic waters, God separates and provide a safe reliable place for

humans, and the dry land is called the yabbashah.

Jon: Yabbashah.

Tim: Yabbashah. So you just read forward, keep reading the story, and wow, that's cool.

All right. Just talk that all the way. Where's the next story where I'm going to come

across chaos waters that are destructive and where waters need to be separated or

rolled back for somebody to be saved? It's actually not that many.

Jon: Yeah, but there's a really big one.

Tim: This is a really important one in just a few pages.

Jon: About the flood.

Tim: About the flood. The flood story, is an introduction with the sons of God Noah, but

once the water starts getting talked about, what God says is He's going to bring

waters that wipe out the living nephesh - the beings.

And the first narrative statement of the flood is in Genesis 7:11. It says, "The springs

of the cosmic deep split open." So have I heard of the cosmic deep before?

Jon: Yeah, the waste in the wild."

Tim: Yeah, that's the wild and waste. This is why as we've talked about this before, the

flood narrative is uncreation story.

Jon: Creation reverse.

Tim: It's God letting. Yeah, it's a reversal of Genesis 1. It's God allowing creation to sink

back into chaos again. "So the deep waters split." So tuck those both away.

Jon: Deep waters splitting.

Tim: It's the springs split open. It's the idea that the cosmic waters that have been

submerged back from under, it's now—

Jon: Because the idea is the waters on top now they're close to us that isn't the chaotic

crazy waters. It's really the stuff that's out in deep?

Tim: It's either out there around the disk of the land that run or its waters under the land

that run that you can tap into when you get a well or something. But then

sometimes those will split open in like a geyser.


Tim: So the waters below burst up and the waters above the windows in the rakia—

Jon: Burst open.

Tim: Literally the doors...Oh, no, it's windows. It's the windows in the rakia's open.

Remember the waters were separated from the waters on day 2. So even right there,

it's picking up the explicit words and ideas from Page 1, God allowing creation to

fold back in on itself in wild and waste.

Then we're told later in the story, everything that had the breath of life...is hard to do

an English. It's nishmat-ruach chayim. So the breath of the breath of life.

Jon: The breath of the breath of life.

Tim: It's the two words for breath. Nishmat—

Jon: The breathing in.

Tim: Breathing in. And then the "ruach" of life.

Jon: The breathing in of the breath of life?

Tim: Yeah. Everything that inhales the ruach that sustains life.

Jon: Okay. Everything that inhales the life-giving breath?

Tim: Yeah.

Jon: Got it.

Tim: Everything that has that, that lives on the dry ground, it died. Every being was wiped

away from the face of the ground; human, adam, beast, creepers, birds of the skies.

So he just named the list of the creatures from days 2 and 3. That's just precisely the


Jon: Days 4 and 5?

Tim: Days 4 and 5, excuse me. So you read this list and you're going like, "Oh, no. The

light, all the ordering of Genesis 1 collapsed, all the habitats going away.

Jon: Decreation's happening.

Tim: It's decreation. There's no hope. There's no hope.

Jon: The next thing would be all the waters...Well, no, all the waters have come back

together. The next thing would be light and darkness—

Tim: Yeah. That's itself collapsing.

Jon: It collapse.

Tim: But instead, the next sentence is, "But Noah remained." The idea is there's a remnant

saved out of the collapse of creation. God preserves a remnant, Noah with Him in

the ark. So Genesis 1 is undone but now it's just the one riff. Remember in altars

example of the Gunslinger? But then the one appears with a rifle.

Jon: With a shotgun.

Tim: This is that moment where you go like, "Oh, no, Genesis, it's all being undone. Oh

no, no, we're all going to die."

Jon: And then Noah is there.

Tim: And then right there, but Noah remained. "Oh, there's hope. There's still hope." Then

Noah's out there floating. The key hinge moment in the flood narrative is a

statement "but God remembered Noah." Which is kind of like, "Did He forget about

him?" But He remembered Noah which means this is the moment that Noah can see

that he's not forgotten because something's about to happen. God caused a ruach...

Jon: A wind?

Tim: ...a wind to pass over the land and the waters began to decrease.

Jon: Which is like a creation story again?

Tim: Yeah, it's sentence two. It's God's ruach passing over, but now over the land and

beginning to push back the wall and the waters turned back from upon the land. So

it's reestablishing order by means of the ruach.

Jon: Separating again?

Tim: Separating again. And it came about on the six hundred and first year of the first of

the month, the waters dried up—

Jon: Six hundred and first year of what?

Tim: This is the Genesis 1 through 11 chronology.

Jon: Okay.

Tim: It's mapped into the genealogy of Chapter 5.

Jon: Got it.

Tim: By the second of the month, on the 14th day, Noah looked up, and behold,

yabbashah, the waters have been separated from the land.

Jon: Yabbashah.

Tim: Just like they were on day 3 of Genesis 1 and the end of day three of Genesis 1 God

called the dry land "yabbashah." After God causes the wind to blow back the waters

to separate water from dry land, yabbashah is what Noah sees.


Tim: So just pause. We have these two stories here. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 narrative.

You see all this? Somebody is trying to talk to me.

Jon: What are they trying to say?

Tim: What was God doing with all the separating?

Jon: He's creating room for life, but ultimately, human life. So He's separating chaos to

create the space for life to flourish. We see that in Genesis 1?

Tim: Yes.

Jon: Then in Genesis 7 with the flood - or is it starting in 6?

Tim: Starts in Genesis 6, but what we looked at was on Genesis 7 and 8.

Jon: Is got all de-escalating and collapsing back on itself.

Tim: Sorry, let's pause. Let's think back. I didn't talk about this, but what's the cause of

creation descending back into chaos? Why does God do this?

Jon: Because everything in humans hearts were evil all the time.

Tim: So in violence.

Jon: In violence.

Tim: Evil and violence.

Jon: Okay.

Tim: So humans are the ones who caused creation to descend back into chaos, and then

God hands it over. That's an interesting difference. God fights back the chaos or

tames it in Genesis 1 to create space for humans. But then humans create the chaos.

Jon: Bring the chaos back.

Tim: Then God just says, "All right, if you want Me to let this thing go back to chaos, then

go right ahead." And that's with the flood. So sorry.

Jon: Yeah, that's cool. So these stories are trying to tell us that it's a good thing when

God reigns in chaos for life, but it's something that we can undo, and that it's

something that God can redo.

Tim: Yeah, that's right. So, God, He redoes us His act of "here it's a form of rescue for


Jon: Right.

Tim: So then that makes you go back to page one and think "That is a kind of rescue.

There are no people—

Jon: But He's rescuing just existence.

Tim: Or it's the beginning of the cycle I guess. It's the beginning of the paradigm. We're

being given, like a template here for how God overcomes chaos, or in this case, evil,

but yet, always sparing, and providing space for a means of escape or a remnant.

That's what the Noah story is, is God's purpose is to cleanse His world of evil and

chaos so that there can be space for humans to be what He intended them to be.

That's the fundamental storyline here between these two.

As we move on, what's another story where we're going to have some kind of

humans creating chaos, they're suffering, God remembers and He fights the waters

to save His remnant. You start to see a storyline.

Jon: Fights water?

Tim: Or He does something. He confronts the waters.

Jon: Yeah, totally.

Tim: You start to take those two stories in Genesis and you go through, okay, think

forward, where else am I going to find all these images packed together into one

sequence?" Usually, there's not that many. So the Exodus narrative is the is the next

big candidate.

Jon: Because in Exodus narrative the water is being the sea that they walk through.

Tim: Yeah, it's the next conspicuous story where a separating the waters becomes a way

that God rescues.

Jon: Oh, man. It's funny because the story of Exodus for me, and you get to the moment

of the crossing of the Red Sea or the Reed sea and it just feels like a really cool

parlor trick or something. Right?

Tim: Oh, okay. Yeah.

Jon: It's a cool visual these big walls of water, the gelatinous walls of water. Do you

remember that?

Tim: Yeah.

Jon: Like that's it. It's just kind of like, well, they needed a way through. I guess that's a

nice little trick. But you connected to this idea of God separating waters to create

space for humans to flourish, all of a sudden, you're like, "Oh, this is mapping on to a

much bigger idea." That's cool.

Tim: Yeah, yeah. What we're getting in these narratives is a portrait of the fundamental

salvation story, which itself is just an expression of God's purpose for creation in the

first place is to push back the chaos to separate an order so that human

communities can flourish. That's page 1.

Then that same creative purpose will get expressed to meet at all these different

points now where humans reintroduce chaos. And so God will replay it. But never full

replay. It's these creative patterning - design patterns. I have the Exodus story

mapped out just key relevant things here.

So the Exodus story begins with Israelites enslaved, and the key hinge point is

Israelites cry out - this is at the end of Chapter 2 - and God remembers his covenant

with Abraham.

Jon: Some phrase from Noah.

Tim: It's exactly the phrase from Noah, the story of Noah. Then it's the moment where

God appoints Moses. The next story after God remembers is raising up Moses. So He

points, Moses, burning bush, all that, Moses says, "No, thank you," and God

convinces them otherwise. And He says to Moses at the end of Chapter 4 - and this

is actually planting a seed for what's coming later on - He says, "This is what you

shall say to Pharaoh, 'Israel is My son, My firstborn son, so I tell you, let my son go

free so that he may serve Me.'" So now God's remembering the plight of His sons

suffering in slavery. And this whole narrative is about God freeing His son.

Jon: And this is the first of an order. I'm trying to remember firstborn means like, first of a


Tim: Yes, firstborn son meaning "status."

Jon: Okay.

Tim: The one in whom I am represented and my legacy is carried on. That kind of thing.

All right?

Jon: Yeah.

Tim: So you know, the story, there's 10 plagues, all that. I'm skipping a lot here. We're just

touching down. Pharaoh eventually is compelled to let them go after the Passover,

and the death of the firstborn, but then he regrets it.

So I'm fast forwarding to the scene at the see here at the waters. So you have

Israelites are down at the coast and Pharaohs like, "What? Oh, no. Why did I let them

go?" So he gets 600 chariots and here's Pharaoh and his chariots advancing on this

band of escaped slaves.

The people start freaking out and here's Moses response. "Don't be afraid. Stand

here and see the salvation of Yahweh He's going to accomplish for you today. The

Egyptians that you see today, you won't see them anymore, Yahweh will fight for

you." As for you here's your job is to stand here and do nothing. Keep quiet. "God

tells Moses lift your staff extend your hand over the sea and split them." Split.

Splitting the waters.

Jon: That's the word from the flood story?

Tim: From the flood story, it's the springs of the deep waters split open.

Jon: And this is a different word than "separate" but it's the same idea?

Tim: Yeah, correct. So this is a good example where it's not a very common word, it's in

both cases related to the key moment of God dealing with the waters. In the flood

story, it was about the floodwaters unleashing - chaos unleashing. Here the splitting

has to do with the taming of the waters. o the same word has opposite functions in

the story but it's still meant to do—

Jon: Remind you.

Tim: Yeah. So the "split the waters" and "let the sons of Israel go free" in the middle of

the sea on the yabbashah.

Jon: Yabbashah.

Tim: Think through Genesis 1, days 2 and 3. Day 2 is separating waters above and waters

below. Day 3 is separating waters and dry land. Here it's split the waters so that the

Israelites may go in the midst of the sea...

Jon: The separated waters.

Tim: ...on the dry land. So it's merging days 2 and 3 where the water split, sea, and dry

land split.

Jon: Splitting the water to create dry land.

Tim: Yeah. so good. All night long the wind's blowing. That's where we're going to

see...Oh, we haven't had the wind yet. Sorry, that's what about to happen. Sorry. I

should just read it. "Then God set a pillar of cloud and fire between the camps of

Egypt and Israel all night long. Moses stretched out his hand over the sea and

Yahweh led away the sea - caused it to go back - by a strong eastern wind. All night

He turned the sea into dry ground and the waters were split." You can see all the

vocabulary keeps getting repeated here. Oh, but the new thing is the wind.

Jon: It's the wind, yeah. The ruach.

Tim: The ruach. So that's the ruach from Genesis 1 and the ruach of the flood story - the

pushback of the waters. "So the sons of Israel went right into the middle of the sea

on the dry land, and the waters were a wall for them on the right and on the left. The

Egyptians chased after them, every horse to Pharaoh, chariots, horsemen into the

midst of the sea, and it came about in the morning watch at sunrise." The sunrise.

So just the whole thing is now being painted as God has split the waters, His people

are being delivered on the dry land through the waters as the sunrise. So now it's all

of days 1 through 3 of Genesis. The light, the separating of waters.

Jon: It's all happening.

Tim: It's all coming together here.

Jon: "Yahweh in the pillar of fire and cloud looked down at Egypt, confused the camp of

Egypt and the waters began to turn back and cover the chariots." So now God's

letting the waters turn back. "They were in the sea and not one of them was

remaining." Not one of them remained. It's that remnant word from the Noah story.

Jon: Oh, remnant.

Tim: But again, the purpose of the words been reversed in the flood story, Noah's the

only one remaining in the waters. Now Israel is passing through the waters like

Noah, and as for the bad guys, there's no remnant because they're consumed in the

floodwaters. But the sons of Israel went through on dry land. So rich.

So this becomes the foundational salvation story through the waters at sunrise.

They're like a new Noah and his family, the remnant, saved out of the waters,

Pharaoh becomes like the sons of God, and the evil generation consumed in the

flood. And all of this is mapped on to God's creative intent to tame the chaos so that

human life can flourish on the dry land. All these stories meld together in these

really beautiful ways.

Jon: Yeah. I mean, what's the purpose of doing this? I guess what I have always expected

the Bible to do is to be really plain about like, what does it mean to be saved? And

let's get really...what's the word I'm looking for?

Tim: Be clear.

Jon: Yeah, be clear.

Tim: If it's essential for your eternal destiny, you would expect it to be just crystal clear.

Jon: Yeah, let's make it really crystal clear. But the way that we're looking at these stories

and creation, and how salvation is kind of all tied into this, it gets more interesting

and more rich, and beautiful, but it becomes less clear.

Tim: What's less clear?

Jon: Well, it becomes less clear, like, "what does that mean for me?" Right? Because if you

said, "Well, salvation is this. Say this prayer, do these things or something," but if you

say, "Well, salvation is God splitting open chaos for you to be able to thrive" then it's

like, "okay."

Tim: Yeah, I got it. Well, maybe we'd have to finish [unintelligible 00:49:08] and the

second book of the Bible.

Jon: Yeah, okay.

Tim: I mean, where we're going to land is baptism. Christian baptism is where all this

comes together.

Jon: All right.

Tim: Jesus's baptism and Christian baptism. But the point is that baptism becomes a

symbol loaded with every one of these stories, and we're going to watch the

apostles do exactly that. They're going to draw on all these stories to help

understand the meaning of baptism. So it will become concrete for people who

need to respond to Jesus. But it's this big, huge, beautiful thing that we're being

invited into through baptism.

Tim: All right, everybody. Thank you for listening to The Bible Project podcast. I hope this

was helpful for you. Our show today was produced by Dan Gummel with music by

Tae The Producer. The Bible Project is a nonprofit crowdfunded animation studio in

Portland, Oregon. We make short animated movies about books of the Bible,

theological themes in the Bible, and we can produce these videos and this podcast

because of your support.

We've got an army of amazing people and supporters behind us, and through their

generosity, we can make all of this stuff and then put it up online to give it all away

for free. So if you want to learn more about what we're doing, just check out our

website at thebibleproject.com. Episode 4 of this conversation will be coming up

pretty soon. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. Cheers.

Iorio: Hi, my name is Iorio Di Gisela [SP]. I'm from Portland, Oregon, born and raised, but I

now reside in Baltimore. What I like about the Bible project is they do a beautiful job

with visualizing what the Bible has to offer, which is the truth. We believe the Bible is

a unified story that leads to Jesus. We are crowdfunded project by people like me.

Find free videos, podcasts, study notes and more at thebibleproject.com.

40 Episodes

Episode 40
The Obvious and Extravagant Claim of the Gospel
All four gospels are pointing toward the same simple yet profound claim. As we read the Gospels, how should we understand discrepancies and variations to see the point of it all?
52m • Sep 30, 2019
Episode 39
Why Are There Four Accounts of the Gospel?
Each of the four gospels begin differently—and for a reason. Learn more about the unique opening chapters of each gospel and discover new ways to read these accounts and understand their claims.
1hr 8m • Sep 23, 2019
Episode 38
The Gospel Is More Than You Think
Where does the word "gospel" come from, and are we using it right? Learn the history of this word and dive into how the biblical authors talked about the Gospel.
55m • Sep 16, 2019
Episode 37
What Does the Word "Gospel" Mean?
Explore the history of the word, "gospel," how modern Western Christians often use the word different than the biblical authors. What is the gospel? The answer is far more exciting and complex than we've been led to believe.
1hr 11m • Sep 9, 2019
Episode 36
Wisdom Q+R
Enjoy our Q+R episode on the wisdom literature in the Bible.
1hr 12m • Jul 29, 2019
Episode 35
Solomon the Cynic and the Job You Never Knew
Welcome to our final episode discussing wisdom literature in the Bible. In this episode, Tim and Jon cover two books, Ecclesiastes and Job.
1hr 5m • Jul 15, 2019
Episode 34
Song of Songs: Semi-Erotic Love Poetry
Welcome to episode 5 in our series on How to Read Biblical Wisdom Literature! In this episode, Tim and Jon discuss Song of Songs.
1hr 4m • Jul 8, 2019
Episode 33
Proverbs: Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly
Welcome to episode four in our series on how to read the wisdom literature of the Bible. Today, Tim and Jon dive into the book of Proverbs.
45m • Jul 1, 2019
Episode 32
Solomon: The Wisest of the Fools
Welcome to our third episode discussing the theme of Wisdom in the Bible.
1hr • Jun 24, 2019
Episode 31
The Quest for Wisdom
Welcome to our new series on how to read the wisdom books in biblical literature!
46m • Jun 10, 2019
Episode 30
Law Q+R
Listen to our audience's questions about how to read biblical law.
56m • Jun 3, 2019
Episode 29
Jesus Fulfills the Law
Welcome to another episode exploring how to read biblical law. This is the final part of this discussion before our Q+R episode for this series.
48m • May 27, 2019
Episode 28
God's Wisdom in the Law
Welcome to our fourth episode on how to read biblical law!
51m • May 20, 2019
Episode 27
The Law as a Revolution
Welcome to our third episode on how to read biblical law!
1hr 2m • May 13, 2019
Episode 26
The Law as a Covenantal Partnership
Welcome to our second episode on how to read biblical law!
1hr 13m • May 6, 2019
Episode 25
The Purpose of the Law
Listen in as we begin our disccusion on the laws in the Bible.
1hr 13m • Apr 29, 2019
Episode 24
Prophets as Provokers
Welcome to episode two in our series on How to Read the Prophets.
56m • Apr 22, 2019
Episode 23
What Prophecy Is for
Welcome to episode one in our miniseries on how to read the Prophets.
58m • Apr 15, 2019
Episode 22
Poetry Q+R
Here is our question and response episode where we answer our listeners' questions about poetry and metaphor in the Bible.
48m • Jul 2, 2018
Episode 21
Chaotic Waters
In the last episode of our Metaphor series, Jon and Tim discuss how water is often displayed as rambunctious and dangerous in the Bible.
1hr 11m • Jun 25, 2018
Episode 20
The Mountain Garden and the Human Ideal
This is our second episode in our series on metaphors in the Bible.
46m • Jun 18, 2018
Episode 19
Metaphor and Our Imagination
This is our first episode in our three-part series on the use of metaphor in the Bible.
59m • Jun 12, 2018
Episode 18
God Speaks in Poetry
This is the 2nd episode in our Art of Biblical Poetry podcast where we explore how God speaks in poetic language.
44m • Jun 4, 2018
Episode 17
The Thunder of God
This is episode 1 in our series on Biblical Poetry!
1hr 18m • May 28, 2018
Episode 16
Chaotic Waters and Baptism
Tim and Jon continue to recap key stories in Genesis and the Old Testament. The key themes in these stories are the chaotic waters and salvation through them.
1hr 2m • Apr 23, 2018
Episode 15
Crossing the Chaotic Waters
Tim and Jon discuss literary design patterns in the Bible.
51m • Apr 16, 2018
Episode 14
Live from Milpitas! Part 2
This is part 2 in our live conversation from Milpitas California! Tim and Jon continue their discussion on design patterns in the Bible.
1hr 18m • Apr 9, 2018
Episode 13
Live from Milpitas! Part 1
Tim and Jon discuss literature design patterns in the Bible to a live audience and answer questions from the audience.
1hr 16m • Apr 2, 2018
Episode 12
Setting in Biblical Narrative
Tim and Jon discuss the importance of understanding “Setting” in Bible stories.
35m • Mar 25, 2018
Episode 11
Character in Biblical Narrative
In this episode Tim and Jon discuss character design in the Bible.
49m • Jan 15, 2018
Episode 10
Plot in Biblical Narrative
Tim and Jon discuss how understanding the unique ways plot and narrative are used by the Hebrew authors to write Bible stories can impact how we read the Bible.
51m • Oct 2, 2017
Episode 9
The Bible as Jewish Meditation Literature: Jewish Scripture Meditation vs. Modern Meditation
In this episode, Tim and Jon continue their conversation about Cain and Abel and why it is a good example of Jewish meditation literature.
40m • Aug 11, 2017
Episode 8
Why Isn't There More Detail in Bible Stories?
Maybe, like us, you've asked yourself this questions or found yourself confused while reading the Bible. We don't know why a character did what they did, or what they looked like, or even what the moral of the story is. How do we make sense of this?
44m • Aug 4, 2017
Episode 7
Poetry, Narrative, and Prose Discourse
Jon and Tim discuss the different literary styles used in the Bible.
45m • Jun 23, 2017
Episode 6
Literary Genres and the Stories We Tell Ourselves
Tim and Jon discuss the three literary styles used in the Bible: narrative, poetry, and prose discourse.
1hr 1m • Jun 19, 2017
Episode 5
Is Reading the Bible Together Just a Form of Groupthink?
A jam-packed episode where Tim and Jon discuss the ancient Hebrew practice of reading the Bible aloud, the sociology of both creating environments and being created by environments in Christianity, and the different kind of power between stories and facts.
48m • Jun 9, 2017
Episode 4
Ancient vs. Modern Ways of Reading Scripture
Tim and Jon discuss the differences in ancient and modern ways of reading scripture, including why the Hebrew people would read scripture together as a group. The guys also talk about how challenging it can be to read the Bible by yourself.
59m • Jun 2, 2017
Episode 3
What Is the Story of the Bible?
In this episode Tim and Jon discuss the big narrative arcs of the Bible. What is the Bible really talking about?
59m • May 26, 2017
Episode 2
What's in Your Bible?
In this episode, Tim and Jon give an overview of the entire Bible with a focus on the Hebrew Scriptures.
1hr 10m • Feb 14, 2017
Episode 1
The Bible as Divine Literary Art
Why are the books of the Bible ordered the way they are? Is there a value in reading the Bible in any other order?
1hr 3m • Feb 8, 2017
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